"sdesros" is Stephane Desrosiers (Java Guru)
"Fleecy" is Fleecy Moss of Amiga Inc.
"TA" is Gary Peake of Team AMIGA.
"DrJekyl" is Gus Haines, a Vapor beta tester and Amiga Help Team Member.
The others are visitors to the channel.
sdesros |TA: if worse comes to worse, I could field some of the |non-AmigaNG Java questions... (Not that I'm in a rush or |anything.) pantheon |sdesros: how close is AWT to completion on the Amiga? sdesros |pantheon: I can't really tell you since I'm not building it. The |closest I've seen is AmigaAWT. You can go to |(www.spirit.net.au/~jamesd/AWT-Beta/index.html). It's only |1.0.2 compatible and are missing a few snags. ExiE |panthen: not so much *GOOD* amiga news page exist :) TA |DrJekyl will keep the queue. If you have a question for Stephan |please send a ? to DrJekyl. sdesros |TA: Maybe I should introduce myself before we start? TA |sdesros: Yes, please do Stephan. sdesros |Okay, for those of you who are wondering "Who's this Stephane |guy", here goes. sdesros |I'm a typical Amiga user who has been programming in Java for |about 2 years now. I've tried out some of the current publicly |available Amiga Java Virtual Machines. Perty |sdesros: You have any programs I can look at? sdesros |Perty: You can check out http://connexions.ocas.on.ca/ . It's a |software package I co-developped with 3 other people. It's 100% |coded in Java and tested for consistency on Windows 95, NT, AIX |and Solaris. TA |DrJekyl will keep the queue. If you have a question for Stephan |please send a ? to DrJekyl. sdesros |Thanks. sdesros |Perty: It's a distance-education/class- |management/automatic-test-delivery-and-correcting system. TA |DrJekyl will keep the queue. If you have a question for Stephan |please send a ? to DrJekyl. sdesros |I'll look at it at school. I'm at my AMiga now :-( TA |sdesros: Is Java hard to learn and what do you suggest someone |interested in Java do about books? Buy the Sun Books? sdesros |TA: It's a tough call really. Books tend to get outdated quite |quickly. Java is constantly evolving. There are so many on-line |tutorials that anyone with C/C++ experience can learn Java easily. TA |DrJekyl will keep the queue. If you have a question for Stephan |please send a ? to DrJekyl. DrJekyl |TarasD: ask sdesros |TA: Bottom line, you're best bet is to check out |"www.javasoft.com" grab yourself a copy of the "API", sign up at |the "Java Developper's Connection" |(http://developer.java.sun.com/) and see what information they |offer.<ga> TarasD | how good is inbult net fetures of java sdesros |TarasD: What exactly do you mean? DrJekyl |queue = Strahd Yoshi Chit nuck sdesros |(Sorry DrJ... Can you voice TarasD. :P) Strahd |What are the actually avalaible amiga JVM and are they any good? DrJekyl |sdesros: :) TarasD |well java has standard socket classes how complete are they say |for bulding a web browser TarasD |and other clients DrJekyl |queue = Strahd Yoshi Chit nuck DrFraggle TA |sdesros: Did you get that one? sdesros |TarasD: There are quite a few interresting classes like the URL |class that actually opens connections. You can also licence their |HotJavaBean if you really want a pre-built Browser. FTP, Mail |clients and classes are available through third parties, but if |you know the protocol, you can build them yourself. Your only |problem is with non-TCP/IP networking software software.<ga> DrJekyl |ppl place a # when you finish your question please Strahd |What are the actually avalaible amiga JVM and are they any good? sdesros |I know of only two that are available. Kaffee (go to |members.tripod.com/~Politikill/) but it doesn't have any GUI |classes working. You can get AmiAWT (it's kaffee), it's a little |flakey, incomplete and only JDK1.0.2 but it works pretty well I |find. (http://www.spirit.net.au/~jamesd/AWT- Beta/index.html). Yoshi |sdesros: For web pages, what's the advantage of Java over |Perl/CGI? # TA |DrJekyl will keep the queue. If you have a question for Stephan |please send a ? to DrJekyl. DrJekyl |Queue = Chit nuck DrFraggle Perty sdesros |It depends on exactly what you're looking to do. There are Java |servlets and Java Appletts... Servlets run on the server side |and act like CGI scripts, except that every time someone runs a |servlet, the JVM runs a thread instead of a complete process)... |(applets comming up.) Chit |sdesros: Concerning JAVA & REBOL, aren't they a lot alike and |where will REBOL figure into the gameplan with AmigaNG? # DrJekyl |Queue = nuck DrFraggle Perty sdesros |Applets are on the client's side. They give you the ability to |open Database connections, make animations & simulations, feed in |live data.<ga> Now for Chit's question. TA |Chit: From talking to AI at Amiwest they very much like the looks |of Rebol. sdesros |I must admit I'm not exactly too sure about Rebol myself. |However, rebol seems more like a scripting language and more |accessible to people. Java still needs to be compiled. TA |sdesros: Correct, REBOL is more like arexx than Java. sdesros |Java can be used to build full applications whereas Rebol seems |more geared to adding features and supplementing the OS. |<ga> nuck |sderos: forgive my ignorance... is it currently possible to |program Java 1.1 on Amiga? If not, will it be? sdesros |It's not ignorance. :P There are no JVM's publicly available to |run pure 1.1 Java code on the Amiga. Kaffee might but it won't |support the AWT/GUI. I spoke with the author of AmiAWT and he |plans to put full 1.1 support ASAP. sdesros |You're alternatives are so far running another OS (Unix based) or |going through Emulation. (Not sure how the JVM is for Mac.) On |the PC you can now run Java on top of DOS using JavaPC. sdesros |<ga> DrFraggle |Do you see any big applications ported to java soon? How do you |think about the importance of java in the future? # TA |DrJekyl will keep the queue. If you have a question for Stephan |please send /msg DrJekyl ? to DrJekyl. sdesros |There are some interresting applications already. (Nothing big) |but things like WinZip-like tools and actual wordprocessors. The |software package that I'm building at work itself is pretty huge |and will tie into a centralized Java-based server system that |will be used for 25 colleges and vocational schools around my |home province. TA |In answer to running Java on the Amiga, Steve told you about the |Classic Amiga. Amiga Inc also plans to have Java on the AmigaNG. Darxide_TA|How rude, defacto just left without saying *anything* to us! sdesros |Java right now really is "big" and people are seeing it mostly |for building independent clients to plug into their servers. |(Replacing Visual Basic.)<ga> Darxide_TA|How rude, Worzel just left without saying *anything* to us! Perty |Two q's: What is the fastest way to draw realtime gfx with Java? |Manipulating memorysourceimages(sp?) and just show/draw them as |buffered images, for lets say a realtime bumpmapper as I have |seen on some pages? Is the AOS5Dev comming with Java in someway |and if so in what way? # sdesros |Perty: I haven't used Images much. But my guess is using some of |the built-in functionality in the new Swing API (Java based |components, it incorporates Java2D graphics library with all |sorts of transformations.) And I wouldn't know if OS5dev will |include Java, but I believe that it should (since Dr. Havemoss |did mention that it was in OS5prod.) sdesros |<ga> Revenant |sdesros: How much help and interest are Sun showing in the |current Amiga's JVM development and for the AmigaNG? i.e. are |they keen or dragging their heels supporting the developers? # sdesros |As far as I know, I haven't heard anything from Sun. (Please |remember, I don't work for Amiga Inc. :)) However, Sun always |seems interrested in spreading Java. sdesros |<ga> Chit |So that I am somewhat clear on JAVA, it is a complete programming |language to possibly replace like C, Cobol, RPG, etc. ? I |understand the basics of it, but have not investigated the |details of the language. It is suppose to change programming as |we now know it right? # sdesros |Okay... Java is composed of two things. A) The JavaVirtual |Machine (a processor emulator) and b) a programming language. |The first is the "Compile-Once- Run-Anywhere" aspect of the Java. | The second is an improvement (I find) over C++ syntaxe. sdesros |It's nothing mind-bongling different than what's out there |already, but it's got so much momentum because it's similar to |C++ and it's "multiplatform".<ga> sdesros |The Java Virtual Machine is an emulator. And like most |emulators, it takes processor time yes. But at the same time |emulators are getting better. Sun itself has developped "HotSpot |Technology" which supposedly makes Java programs run as fast as |compiled C++ code... (Much faster then Compiled Visual C++ code. |;) ). DrJekyl |Queue = Perty sdesros |HotSpot is a combination of faster Garbage Collection routines |and code optimisation routines. sdesros |<ga> Perty |Hmmmm... got some answares but... What about Hot Spot... I have |red that it shuold be very good and fast but what is it? Optmized |JVM or? sdesros |Okay, time for the details... :P sdesros |First time Sun decided to speed up the JVM, was with Run-Time |Compilation. (It would compile something to native language the |first time it ran that segment of a program. When it would |return to that segment, it would run the compiled part.) sdesros |Then they realized that sometimes that was actually slower. sdesros |So they made a smart JVM that compiles the code only when it |would help and not hinder. sdesros |Then they sped up some other things that would help like Garbage |Collection... sdesros |I still have to see it myself though.<ga> Perty |What about Merapi? Any signs/news of that yet? # sdesros |I followed Merapi for a while. The most I've heard is that the |author was planning on releasing it similarly as the author of |AmiAWT. (Incomplete but fonctional while he was completing it.). | I haven't seen it yet though. sdesros |<ga> santa |What is your involvement with the combination of Amiga and Java? |Are you working on special AMIGA ports/projects?# sdesros |Not directly no... I *will* hopefully be working on some things |(soon) that might be a link to both though.<ga> Chit |sdesros: So what is needed and what are those developers doing |to make JAVA work with the Amiga? A compiler or interpeter or |both? From what you have said, the language is not at all |processor dependent? Is JAVA most efficiently run under |Unix/Linux environment now?# sdesros |Java basically requires a Java Virtual Machine. The "emulator" |part of the equation. What's taking it's time with the Amiga |Ports is the GUI aspect. The first generation of Java GUI (the |AWT classes) require the JVM to have the OS's GUI components talk |to the Java GUI components. With their new GUI "Swing"/JFC you |only need a generic component on the Native OS's side. sdesros |<ga> Perty |Is there some sort of Assembler/disassembler for Java? I really |would like to try out real bytecode coding :- )# sdesros |I've heard that Sun had licenced a C++ developement kit. I don't |see why Assembly/Dissenbly would be impossible... sdesros |<ga> SupaTroopa|I'm quite used to creating little applications for comms in basic |and such like on my current amiga. should I be looking at |learning java to make best use of comms on the new Amigap |latforrm SupaTroopa|platform that is sdesros |It won't hurt... It'll gear you to Object Oriented Programming |(if you haven't done so already). As long as you're not working |on heavy CPU intensive applications it should suit your needs. |I'm not exactly sure what Aminga Inc. has in plan for Java. I |only know that it'll be included with OS5. <ga> elho |Do You know if any of the Amiga JVM ports is planned to be done |for PPC, too? Would it be easy, ie. for kaffe more or less "just" |recompiling?# sdesros |I don't know of any. But I don't see why not. However, I'm not |sure if their will be a significant speed increase since Java |still needs to talk to the underlying OS for networking, GUI, and |other things. Maybe H&P could answer that question, if they can |Merapi out. <ga> Neodym |When will we see a working release of Java anyway? How fast will |it be (i.e. PPC?) and will it cover all Java specs? Neodym |(ga) sdesros |All I know is that AmiAWT is the most complete one I've seen for |Amiga. It's probably going to be included with both OS5dev... |<ga> Nutello |Aren't Java classes a bit too inconsistent already? E.g. the same |method is named differently in different classes (setLabel, |setText) or caps are used differently (Hashtable, HashCode). Not |to mention functions for I/O and conversions. I find it to be |quite painful... and it kinda sucks if you consider that Java's a |brand new design (and things can only get worse, some would sdesros |Hmm... I don't tend to get lost. The methods in the subclasses |tend to depend on their super classes. Swing seems more consitent |though, but a little more confusing to get started in.<ga> ck |Hi! I know that you can't tell me much about the Java |implementation in OS5, but what could you tell me as a developer |that I can get going with now so that I may be able to work on |OS5Dev as quickly as possible? sdesros |I'm not exactly sure what your question is. But all I know is |I've been told that "Java is a great place to start in |programming for the AmigaNG"... Other then that, you might want |to brush up on C++. sdesros |<ga> Perty |Are you going to buy the AOS5Dev machine? Planning to make some |software or likes for AOS5Prod? What's your opinion on the Dev |machine? # sdesros |Well, my only PC (which I use for Java Programming at home) needs |an upgrade anyway. My A4000 is starting to get used a lot by my |roomate. So I'm probably going for an OS5dev. However, I'll |reserve my opinion on if until I actually see it in action. (But |it does seem promising for a stepping stone IMHO.)<ga> SupaTroopa|I'm not an Amiga programmer for a living. Will learning Java for |the Amiga be identical as learning it for the PC based things? |ie: If I do learn OO, will I be able to use it elsewhere? I have |currently only Mainframe Cobol skills.. Naturally I'd like work |to buy Amigas :-), but they may not... SupaTroopa|done sdesros |Definatly. Learning Java like any other language can only help. |OO skills are tranferable and desired. <ga> Chit |Since JAVA was created under a UNIX environment, would that be |the best spot for learning/working with it for us (Amiga) now |instead of the "bastard" version in Windoze? # sdesros |Working in Unix gives you a more stable OS to work from... |There's no other advantage, unless you go for a UltraSparc based |workstation. The JVM is supposedly faster because the UltraSparc |is a closer match to the Java "CPU". Oh and you can run a unix |environement on the Amiga. :) <ga> Rocambole |Do you have any knowledge of when java version of IBrowse or the |FinalBrowser will be out. And have you been asked for help from |any of the authors Rocambole |?# TA |Java and other OO languages are going to be very important for |OS5DEV and OS5PROD. sdesros |Well, I'm more of an expert in programming for Java and not |programming Java Virtual Machines. The only help I can really |give them is testing out the JVM's. As for Browsers supporting |JAVA, I haven't a clue. It will most likely be a little after we |get a working JVM to tie it to. :)<ga> fleecy |I am SO sorry guys and gals - the pressure of having a new baby. sdesros |fleecy's here. *phiew*. :P TA |DrJekyl has the queue. If you have a question for Stephan please |send /msg DrJekyl ? to DrJekyl. sdesros |JMan: Well... It's fairly simple with Java. You build a class |that extends a thread and go. The problem with Audio is that |it's very limited in Java for now. sdesros |<ga> DrJekyl |anymore questions out there ? fleecy |I am only hear to talk about Java and Corba ;-) Dave_C |Now is the time for the Imapct on AMIGA_NG questions Revenant |sdesros: Java seams to still only be a buzz word, I've heard that |Corel Office is available in java format (or about to be) and I |know of Document management system in Java. Do you know of any |java product that is definately available that isnt just a |gimmick? sdesros |Revenant: At the risk of sounding like a broken record... |There's the one I'm working on, along with quite a few others. |There's Java Web Server, Browser, WinZip client, wordprocessors, |satellite tracking software, etc. Go to "www.javasoft.com" and |I'm sure you'll find alot. <ga> Nutello |fleecy: are you guys at AI in touch with anybody about CORBA |support under OS5? GA fleecy |The whole CORBA issue is something I am pushing. Because of the |nature of CORBA and the DC priamry markets of AInc, we are |looking at some form of MicroCORBA, providing the CORBA bus and |basic services but allowing others to build upon them. Laurie |I'm wondering what everyone thinks about JFC as a model for Amiga |NG gui components? fleecy |There are many good examples of freeware and GPL orbs, such as |BBN's Corbus (www.bbn.com) and most impressively Objectspace's |Voyager sdesros |Laurie: I myself have just begun to work with JFC. I'm used to |AWT but I kind of like it. I can't really compare it to |something else (apart from XWindows/Motif) because I haven't |programmed many GUI's myself. :) fleecy |Swing has been a great step in the right direction but we don't |want to end up too tied to what Sun tell us - if Sun open up all |the way then we may see the revolution we have all been looking |for. Chit |Whoa, slow down a minute, fleecy, explain CORBA to us that are |new or at least a little fuzzy to the term please! # fleecy |I'll tell you what - as I screwed up, I will offer to do another |IRC on CORBA - Idon't want to hijack Stephane's gig.... and I fleecy |have to go in a minute as well. SupaTroopa|Someone made mention of a "os5dev" machine earlier, it was going |to replace their current machine. Do I have to get one of these |to , how much will they cost, is there an alternative? Is there |anything else you guys can tell me about it. SupaTroopa|done fleecy |I can answer all Amiga Inc questions at the monthly IRC for that |purpose - which Team Amiga organises. This is a JAva IRC Perty |fleecy: What about Javasupport in AOS5Dev? I read somewhere it |will be there but in what way? Native AOS5 or under MS-DOS or |something? fleecy |We are looking at a kernal partner that already has a native JVM. |If one exists, we would be fools not to take advantage of it. fleecy |Ppl, I am really sorry for my rudeness - I have to go now - |please check the website for the monthly TA meeting I get beaten |up at, and we will organise a CORBA one as well. Philbo |fleecy: We know that Java will be supported but will there be |any support in OS5 for transparent 'Classic Amiga' emulation, |just as PowerMacs run old Mac software? Or even PC emulation as |standard to help entice PC users to the new system? TA |We will have an Amiga Inc conference later this month. Stay tuned |... fleecy |Philbo - emulataion is very important for us - we want a product |that already has apps, even if they are classic apps being |emulated - of course you can say goodbye to most of the metal |banging ones but we are looking seriously into it. Asha |I hear a lot about JAVA for OS5/DEV/PROD, what about for the |Classic Amiga? Any information? DrJekyl |Queue = Perty TA |DrJekyl has the queue. If you have a question for Stephan or |Fleecy ABOUT JAVA please send /msg DrJekyl ? to DrJekyl. fleecy |Asha - Hey lovely 8-) You know as much as I do - Merapi, the |Finale-Dev thing and one or two others. sdesros |Well, Kaffee and AmiAWT are the closest so far... I've given the |URLs out already. I can give them out before I go. Perty |sdesros: What's the best java environement IYHO? Symantec Visual |Café? sdesros |I use the good 'ol JDK myself... I've tried Visual Cafe, Sun's |Java Workshop 2.0, PowerJ and none of them really impressed me. |However Visual Cafe and PowerJ come with some nice new classes. |:)<ga> DrJekyl |Anyone else have any questions ? fleecy |One thing that is impressive is that JDK1.2 will have a full ORB |within it, with a full IDL2Java pre- compiler, so for those of |you who want to play with it, you can and for free ;-) elho |fleecy: What role will JAVA play in AmigaNG? elho |Just supported or will os parts use it? fleecy |elho:A very important one. If it wasn't for some immaturity and |the way Sun keeps invalidating classes with each release we may |have used it totally. it is developing at a phenomenol rate. For |us the key is it provides implementation independence sdesros |fleecy: What's the URL to your page? fleecy |elho : no, we will use C/C++ for the OS. Java at the moment is |strictly for the application layer fleecy |sdesrod : which one? sdesros |The one that states you'll have info on your monthly IRC |conference, etc... TA |http://web.wt.net/~gpeake TA |http://web.wt.net/~gpeake/daily.html TA |Perty: We are working fast and furious at it now. Nutello |fleecy: has the new programming model created by the ICOA |workgroup been examined at AI? Has it been accepted yet |(partially? fully? not at all?)? GA fleecy |Allan has looked at the model and was impressed. He doesn't want |to pass any comments on it until the kernal partner is agreed yet |because depending on which way we go could have major |implications. TA |We only have time for a couple of more questions for Stephane. ShuFlie |fleecy: are you thinking of a JIT compiler for java or running |precompiled source? fleecy |I'm going - sorry Stephane - see you all later sdesros |Thanks for comming FLeecy. :) TA |Thanks Fleecy and Stephane! TA |Sorry guys, both of our guests have other committments. Rocambole |we look forward to the next session [X_MaN] |yes Thank you fleecy for your help, it is greatly appreciated, |and I am sure we all look forward to your next conference sdesros |It's been fun guys. Hopefully I can talk about more complete |JVM's next time :P TA |Thanks to DrJekyl for handliung the queue!!